Trying to understand trucks. Part 1

"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer) 05/31/2018 at 14:35 • Filed to: None

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Mexico made about 700,000 body on frame pickup trucks in 2016 from an assortment of brands, Chevrolet, GMC, Ram, and Toyota. Which begs the question, why are pickup trucks still a thing?

Full disclosure: I am a Mexican from the “valley” region that doesn’t have an impossible to understand love for pickup trucks alike northerners do. I do however have an impossible to understand love for the Tacoma.

Lets begin with an objective description of what a pickup truck has traditionally been: A work vehicle with an ample cargo bay and, in some cases, off road credentials. A pickup truck is traditionally body-on-frame, has a solid rear axle, and can be RWD or 4WD.

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Given that description lets talk about prices. According to !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , Trucks had an average sale price of 40,696 in 2015; eight thousand dollars higher than all vehicles sold in the US at the time and also a 41% increase from 2004! This would surely make businesses that depend on trucks angry were it not for ample deductions made available.

Despite similar incentives to the US, it is still common for Mexican companies to use small hatchbacks for most company business.

As long as the vehicle has a separate load bay of at least 1.8m of length and a GVWR between 2.7 and 6.4 metric tons a truck could claim a 100% tax deduction. Which is all fine and good until you learn that vehicles outside this range (and others for passenger buses) can’t be deducted entirely. Which means that a business could find itself buying a truck for no applicable purpose other than cashing in tax credits. The job that could’ve been done by a small, more fuel efficient, space efficient vehicle goes to a heavy truck that will not be used for what it was designed to do. Plus, as far as I could research hybrids/electric only qualify for a $7,500 write off, which again, leads us to a position where a business might be making the best decision by buying a Chevrolet Colorado instead of a Toyota Prius.

While you might puff up your chest and say “Fuck Prii!” remember, some of us need to breath and/or consume fossil fuels. This built in inefficiency makes trucks seem more reasonable for businesses that don’t need them. Which hikes demand, which in turn hikes prices for all trucks, which is bad for the government as they recoup less tax revenue and for consumers. This without even mentioning that American trucks don’t have real rivals thanks to policies like the Chicken Tax.

Another thing that has kept pickup trucks artificially alive is exception to the Gas Guzzler tax which would make sense for business purposes, but extended to the entire population, this exception causes more demand for trucks which means, again, higher prices.

Then we can focus on enviromental laws like California’s EO’s and CARB regulations that have kept diesel truck prices artificially high. A business could write off a diesel truck, use it for ten years and then sell it for an exorbitant price to an enthusiast or a tuner just because it doesn’t have to comply with some enviromental regulations due to it’s age. While one could argue that some EO’s and CARB programs present an unreasonable burden on consumers that do not result in environmental protection, it is a program that has inadvertently kept unstable, unsafe vehicles in the roads. As older trucks aren’t exactly good at dealing with collisions. Neither are older trucks good at avoiding collisions in the first place, what with their rudimentary electronics, high center of gravity, and permissive suspension set ups: Making them hazardous for all drivers.

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As Jeremy Clarkson eloquently described when testing the SVT lightning, pickup beds are open which means that someone could steal your shit if you stop at a set of lights, something that to him seemed to be an aspect Americans don’t care about. Yet it’s common to see trucks with bed covers, and also manufacturers touting interior carrying space and lockable sections of the bed. Which sort of leads you to the issue that, if beds are insecure and consumers have to pay a price atop the truck to make it secure, why not buy a vehicle with an enclosed cargo hold in the first place? You might tout the interior carrying space, but you still have a 1.8m bed that is going to be less safe in one way or another.

Then there’s the issue of Americans liking big, luxury trucks. Sure! But what would the price difference between the most expensive F-250 be compared to a Lincoln Continental? You don’t have to imagine it!

Using zip 90001 (Southern California) You get this:
A Ford F-250 Limited with the Diesel engine starts at $81,000
A Lincoln Continental with the 3.0 ecoboost starts at $74,000

The difference between the Lincoln and the F-250 is that the truck’s base is still a work vehicle and whose focus is on utility and not refinement. The Lincoln isn’t exactly fancy either, as it begins with the CD4 platform, but it is still at least based on a passenger vehicle that would perhaps put comfort before utility. Thus, it takes more work to turn an F-250 XL into a Limited than it would take to turn a Continental Premier into a Black Label.

*: Data not extracted from Ford Mexico.

So what about businesses?
Well, lets look at the most expensive Ford Transit Custom panel van in the Mexican Market, and at the specs when compared to the cheapest F-150 on sale. It is clearly showing the Transit as the choice for a business. Because it is! This follows the trend of businesses switching over to vans anyway because of course they would! sometimes even outdated incentives can’t stop a business looking for a different vehicle.

It is not to say trucks are utterly useless, because a Transit Custom is basically useless off road. But, as the world becomes more urbanized that won’t really matter to businesses. It is also not an argument about consumer efficiency because similar rants could be cooked up for performance cars too: Why should I not buy a truck that could haul 903kg if your BMW M4 that could do 155mph only sits in Beverly Hills traffic?

Lets stay with that, by the way. Because the biggest issue with pickup trucks isn’t the efficiency (or lacktherof) it is the space they take. A truck is wide, tall,heavy and long. Urban planners, architects and civil engineers have to plan accordingly. Then you end up having to build deeper parking lots for the taller vehicles with more space reserved for wider, longer spaces and better circulation. Then you need to conduct road maintenance more often because trucks weigh more than normal cars and thus can tear up pavement much more easily. This without even including that it’s absurd how much space a truck takes in a traffic jam, the space of two small cars!

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I consider the arguments that I gave to be somewhat objective, and I won’t include subjective arguments because I don’t have any relevant ones. I’m not here to shit on trucks, I’m just saying what I know and understand about them.

I’m probably missing a lot of shit and that’s sort of the point; I want to know your opinion about trucks, which is why this is a part 1; given the feedback from this I’d try to write a part 2. Have a Taco for your time:

The 2018 Kia Sephia of trucks!

For Sweden > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 14:39

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Trucks are good

RutRut > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 14:43

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Trucks do a lot of things reasonably well if you can accept the trade offs. With a crew cab you can comfortably haul 4 -5 people, a bed full of stuff and a trailer. Whether you have a lawn crew inside and a utility trailer and tools, or a family of 5, luggage and bicycles in the bed and a boat or camper behind doesn’t really matter. It’s one vehicle that can do a lot of jobs, it just sucks on gas and trying to park places. Also, it’s realistically cheaper with incentives and dealer prices to buy a Silverado (aka Cheyenne for you folks south of the border) 1500 than it is to buy a Colorado.

Side note: I was actually at the FCA truck plant in Saltillo 2 weeks ago. What an odd area.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 14:44

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because people like what they like, they want something that can haul the family, the groceries, the pets, the occasional building materials all without having to either buy two vehicles, rent one when they need it, ask to borrow one from a friend or family, or try to shoehorn everything into a sedan.

i have no practical need for a truck, i dont work construction, i maybe need a pick up trucks bed maybe twice a year, and when i do i just borrow my dads ridgeline or my grandpas frontier. but when it comes time to replace my little cobalt itll be replaced with crew cab pickup with at least heated front seats. and you know why? because i like the way they look, i like the way they drive, and most importantly because its my money and i can spend it on what i want. not what others think fits my situation.

PartyPooper2012 > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 14:45

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I asked something similar and answer I received is that pickups are a cheap rear wheel drive powerful vehicle - something like a race car for non race track conditions. offroading, mud, snow.

Also.. this is a thing in USA

Personally, I have a utility trailer where I can haul any sort of home improvement supplies, trash to a dump, furniture...etc. Unhook the trailer and still use the SUV.. so I also don’t understand pickup trucks.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 14:46

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Spanfeller is a twat > For Sweden 05/31/2018 at 14:47

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That’s a great unbiased argument.

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 14:52

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I’ll admit that my reasons are more emotional than rational. Of all the vehicles I’ve driven, the two that captured my heart were my 2002 Dakota and my dad’s 1978 GMC K25. I like my vehicles just a bit trashy and rough. I like being able to smash a speedbump at 40MPH. I like being able to throw anything I want into the bed and just haul it around. I don’t need passenger space. My Dakota did, and my Ram does corner as fast as I can safely drive anyways. More cornering ability would realistically just be a waste. I do have a better brake setup marked as my Ram’s brakes never have really felt good.

Call me 50% geek, 50% redneck. I’ve shoveled horse stalls and built a PC in the same day.

CobraJoe > PartyPooper2012 05/31/2018 at 14:54

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Unhook the trailer and still use the SUV.. so I also don’t understand pickup trucks.

Trailers still cost money, require their own insurance and license plates, and you need an SUV built like a truck to tow more than 2000 pounds anyways (And if your trailer weighs 1000 pounds, you can’t haul any more weight than a mini truck).

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > RutRut 05/31/2018 at 14:55

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As someone who’s considering a Colorado, this makes me crazy.

Die-Trying > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 14:56

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heh......

trucks are the greatest ever........ they are built better from the factory, to withstand more abuse longer, with the intended purpose of being abused. built to haul and tow.

that is a large reason why they retain their value much longer than cars.

not only that, they provide the luxury of sitting higher in traffic, and having solid bumpers to dismiss negligent traffic. safer...

as for them using lots of fuel......... well if someone is going to use it all up, it might as well be me.......

sorry you hate things that i like........

deprecated account > For Sweden 05/31/2018 at 14:56

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Can confirm.

Spanfeller is a twat > CobraJoe 05/31/2018 at 14:56

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But SUVs are more useful the rest of the time. Also, trucks are artificially cheap in the US...

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 14:57

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Having an open bed is useful when putting goods into and out of it in the same day. In most circumstances, trying to use a van in the US usage milieu has been much less convenient. With Euro style vans with lower floors than the traditional kinds and trucks with ever higher beltlines, less of a thing now than it used to be, but still - being able to “chuck in” working material and tools is the height of utility.

Then there’s the issue of goods sharing space with the cabin and the added time to cool a larger space on a hot day, along with the ability to have a luxury zone isolated from a “dirty goods” zone. Trucks beat vans hollow .

Then there’s the issue of trucks’ soft suspensions coping well with poor roads in terms of comfort, and particularly rural and gravel roads.

Combine with this that most urban trucks are present from suburban areas, and that a huge percentage of trucks are, simply, rural. Those trucks enjoying urban-only use are merely filling in the gap produced by the lack of supersize RWD semi-lux sedans due to emissions and other limitations.

Then also there is the US tendency to want to size for ones dreams, not current circumstance. A man and his wife buy a four-bedroom house with a rec room, a man buys a truck because he believes it’s his best option when he buys a boat in three years... maybe.

Bottom line - it’s not even remotely stupid that people continue to buy trucks. The city is not the only thing there is, and inconvenience only goes so far.

Spanfeller is a twat > PartyPooper2012 05/31/2018 at 14:57

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I guess it’s like guns.


They only make sense in America and for reasons that have not been adequately explained to me yet.

Spanfeller is a twat > Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero 05/31/2018 at 14:58

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“I have no practical need for a truck”

Then, would you mind paying the Gas Guzzler tax if it applied to your truck?

PartyPooper2012 > CobraJoe 05/31/2018 at 14:58

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insurance is optional. Registration is not.

SUV - Lexus GX470 is capable of towing the trailer with two cubic yards of dirt.... or 60 bags of mulch.

I am not denying that it is heavy... towing capacity is little over 5000lbs so I know it may have been overloaded slightly a time or two, but for the most part, it can do the job and then put trailer away and use a nice vehicle... whereas a pickup truck may get dinged up and scraped and stuff. Wont look so nice after a while

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:00

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well i dont ever plan on buying a truck new off the lot, unless the incentives are stupid good, which would probably negate any gas guzzler tax applied. but for now ill let the first owner handle that

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 05/31/2018 at 15:01

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To add, the relative mechanical simplicity of trucks combined with large wheel size, operation well below capacity, and low mechanical cycle count means that many trucks enjoy hundreds of thousands of trouble free miles, better than most sedans and hatches in recent memory. Components are, in a word, unstressed. This plays into customer choice, because the people who buy expensive trucks very often go quite a few years between purchases. If they’re buying for size and not features so much, these people buying a Continental would be idiotic.

BlueMazda2 - Blesses the rains down in Africa, Purveyor of BMW Individual Arctic Metallic, Merci Twingo > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:01

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Nothing > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:02

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Growing up, my dad always had a car for hauling the family (being the youngest of nine, for a long time, the car was a station wagon of some sort) and a truck for doing truck stuff (he built our cabin/camp, dump runs, etc, etc). Trucks in the 70s and 80s were regular cab work vehicles and for a lot of people, they were parked until they were needed.

I have a Tacoma DoubleCab now. It can do both duties, family hauling and “truck stuff”. Why do I like mine? I can take my son to hockey, go off road, go pick up lumber, mulch, rock, etc. After having the versatility of a truck, I plan to always have one. When I don’t need to haul family around in a vehicle, I’ll probably get an access cab, assuming I ever get rid of the Taco.

Vehicles are a want vs need thing anyway. Just like there are regional tastes in clothes, housing, food, there are regional tastes in vehicles.

Spanfeller is a twat > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 05/31/2018 at 15:03

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You can have cabin partitions on all sorts of vans; specially panel van models.


I think it has more to do with dreaming of boats to be honest.... But those are good arguments nonetheless

Nothing > Die-Trying 05/31/2018 at 15:04

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That’s as good looking truck right there!

Spanfeller is a twat > RutRut 05/31/2018 at 15:04

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So, like this:

I think it’s mostly the incentives to be honest.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > For Sweden 05/31/2018 at 15:05

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10/10 would truck.

PartyPooper2012 > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:06

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We have guns to protect us from rogue government which has tanks, guided cruise missiles and jet fighters.... Constitutionally, we may form militias to defend from invaders or rogue animals... but most places forbid discharge of a firearm in residential area. soooo ... yeah. ‘MERICA!!!

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:06

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Also, trucks are artificially cheap in the US...

Uh...what? Trucks are ridiculous right now both new and used

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:06

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I know cabin partitions exist, but they’ve never been widely accepted in this country. Mostly because they don’t match a sense of design intent that customers expect, are less than a complete solution, and make already bad visibility issues worse. Much easier to simply look out of a pickup cab...

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:07

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RIP rear suspension.

Spanfeller is a twat > Die-Trying 05/31/2018 at 15:07

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It’s not hate, it’s simply not understanding.

TahoeSTi > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:08

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You forgot to add that trucks make your dick bigger, which is why most guys seem to buy them. Adding a lift and bigger tires doubles the results.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:10

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I have 2 trucks. The first I bought because I am frequently hauling stuff to or from our house, I do it frequently enough that buying a car and renting when I needed on didn’t make sense. This truck is my daily/beater. My second truck I bough because my first truck just couldn’t tow our boat well, it was pushing what the truck could handle and was a bit sketchy at freeway speeds. My next vehicle is definitely going to be something smaller, but trucks are useful all purpose vehicles where if you only have one vehicle it’s the default choice.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:11

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Because the boat doesn’t tow itself and the racecar doesn’t drive itself to the track, I drive this:

thejustache > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:12

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I don’t know. I did read your post, but I’m going to ignore analytical thought for a moment and just say that while the vast majority of people might never use their trucks in the capacity they were designed for, there are plenty of other people that do. I’m speaking as someone who has a fairly truck-like non truck daily driver, an Outback XT. I love my outback and it’ll get me through the rugged rural area I live in better than plenty of trucks. I’ve used it to move more furniture (and wood and even cement blocks) than plenty of folks probably do with their trucks. While I could get a truck to do these things, as a musician that sometimes carries expensive instruments or equipment in my vehicle I do appreciate that I can shut the windows and just lock it up. It’s dry and comfy inside as well. With 300lb.ft of torque, I can tow most of the things that are too big to fit inside.

Having said all that, as a homeowner if I ever need to move large piles of dirt or rocks I’m calling my dad and borrowing his truck. There is just no good way to do that without a truck. I’d venture that it’d be nigh impossible to run a modern farm without owning some form of truck, and as vast parts of the US are agricultural the fact that we have some many trucks starts to make sense. “Why are pickup trucks so big” is to me the better question - my dad’s single cab gen 1 tacoma in low range will haul a bed full of rocks up a near vertical slope and keep on going if you ask it to. I’d agree that the truck market today is largely bloated stuff that will mostly never work that hard, but if you’re asking “why are pickups still a thing” in general, I think you’d have to also ask “why are farms still a thing”.

Sorry, I didn’t realize I felt so strongly about trucks hahaha

Spanfeller is a twat > Nothing 05/31/2018 at 15:12

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Yeah, but in a sense economics do play a role. Those incentives? that chicken tax and that exemption from the gas guzzler tax?

I won’t pretend I understand the tax code entirely, but trucks do seem like good buys in very limited situations. Certain market failures that lead to inefficiencies made their appeal much more wide. Which is what I see beyond the emotion.

I love Tacomas, but given all that you and other users have told me it seems like a large estate car with some good rubber mats could do 95% of what the Taco does without being unusually large and thirsty.

Die-Trying > Nothing 05/31/2018 at 15:16

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thanks, but it is not mine...... i have its “domestic violence survivor” sister “green” 4x4, shortbed, stepside, manual trans, v8........ doesnt have a straight panel anywhere (how i got it)....... but it sure has been a good friend. just waiting on me to get after it, and put its 400sbc into it.

Spanfeller is a twat > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 05/31/2018 at 15:17

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Well, imagine how expensive they’d be without the incentives!

Spanfeller is a twat > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 05/31/2018 at 15:17

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Hey, it died doing what it loved..... being driven with an owner that ignored the tow tongue ratings.

Spanfeller is a twat > thejustache 05/31/2018 at 15:21

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Well, think of it this way, given that you only need a truck once or twice a year, isn’t it more convenient to have something smaller the rest of the time?

Also, farmers work, and if they need trucks they should have them! But the thing about this article wasn’t shitting on bad incentives but incentives that are too broad and could bring upon some market failures. I also happen to have family in Spain in a rural community with farmers and they just have vans with separate compartments and trailers anyway.

Spanfeller is a twat > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 05/31/2018 at 15:21

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But then you’re in the 1% in a sense

Spanfeller is a twat > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 05/31/2018 at 15:22

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So, not a single car in the market would be able to tow those trailers?

I do concede that some people need trucks. and that that’s a pretty cool racecar.

Spanfeller is a twat > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 05/31/2018 at 15:23

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Checks out.

Spanfeller is a twat > TahoeSTi 05/31/2018 at 15:23

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Yeah but that’s biased... If I dare say what I really think about trucks I might be banned.

thejustache > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:27

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Again, like pickup trucks, guns are something that start to make sense the further out of the city you get. Do I really NEED a gun where I live? No, but I got my family some fresh Turkey meat the other day with one and enjoyed the process as well. Sure, I could have called animal control about the rabid woodchuck in yard a few years back, but they take forever to show up and by then it probably would have moved on and maybe infected something else. Are you a farmer with crops getting decimated by deer or chickens getting shredded by a fox? You’re going to want a gun. Move even farther into the wilderness and now you’ve got a bear interested in getting into your house? A gun would be nice there too.

Does anybody really need an AR? Just like bloated pickup trucks that rarely get used for real work, probably not. But guns in general? Yeah they have a place... you just have to get outside of the city if you want to understand what it is.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:28

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But I don’t want to

Die-Trying > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:28

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maybe if you consider it from a different angle....... how may people do you usually haul along with you on most of your drives? just you most of the time right? so YOU could probably get along decent with just a 2 seater car right? lets just say...... so a single cab truck is like a coupe...... now guys with small 2 door cars like power, and trucks have plenty of it......

its like having a sports car that will haul all your stuff......

if you have more people to haul, heavier jobs, there are options for that too.......

owning one would go a long ways towards understanding, its a lot like “its a jeep thing”, but just with trucks.......

CobraJoe > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:29

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I just bought a truck, an ‘05 Titan 4x4 crew cab. It’s huge inside, easily room enough for 5 adults or 3 car seats across the back seat. Few vehicles other vehicles without a 3rd row can handle 2 adults and 3 kids in car seats.

The bed is open and unsecured, but it’s also more versatile than a van and separates the cargo from the passengers. You can pour in sand or mulch with a skid loader, there is no limit to how tall your load is, and smelly or messy loads stay far away from the driver.

Urban planners, architects and civil engineers have to plan accordingly. Then you end up having to build deeper parking lots for the taller vehicles with more space reserved for wider, longer spaces and better circulation. Then you need to conduct road maintenance more often because trucks weigh more than normal cars and thus can tear up pavement much more easily. This without even including that it’s absurd how much space a truck takes in a traffic jam, the space of two small cars!

Trucks today aren’t much larger than they used to be. They look larger, they are certainly taller, but the overall length is pretty close to what they were in the 80s. (Remember, they build trucks to be useful on existing roads, they don’t expect cities to rebuild everything bigger for the trucks).

Trucks weigh more than normal cars, but not that much more than the large SUVs that are popular these days, and not that much more than the land barges in the 70s (A 1975 LTD 4 door was around 4600 pounds, an F150 can be as light as 4069 pounds).

It really shouldn’t be that odd that people like them.

Milky > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:29

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My mom is on her third Silverado (after 3 camaros actually) and all she hauls with it is milk. Like literally jugs of milk and water bottles go in the bed. The rest of the groceries go in the cab. I find it quite funny.

I once used her truck to pull my broken car, she was freaking out.

Spanfeller is a twat > thejustache 05/31/2018 at 15:30

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Oh, of course! Some guns makes sense everywhere.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:30

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I should also add I don’t want to sell my first truck because it’s A) not worth a lot and B) a fairly unique combination that’ll probably still be running after the nuclear holocaust

Nothing > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:30

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My truck is a much better compromise as a people hauler and utility vehicle than a sedan/wagon is a utility/people hauler for me at least. I see people post those silly “who needs a truck!” with lumber sticking out their windows, strapped to roofs, cars overloaded with whatever cargo. I also dislike the “get a cargo trailer” argument. I don’t have the space to store one.

If I replace the Taco, it would be for a Challenger Scat Pack, which does get smacked with the gas guzzler tax.

It simply comes down to what you want. Nobody needs to own a vehicle. Similarly, I don’t get sedans. ~26 vehicles into my vehicle owning life and I’ve yet to own a sedan.

Spanfeller is a twat > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 05/31/2018 at 15:30

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and now you understand how Mexicans felt when the government stopped subsiding gas.

Spanfeller is a twat > Die-Trying 05/31/2018 at 15:33

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Yeah, but my four door car isn’t 2.1m wide and tall or 6m long! neither is it 2.5 tons of high ridding metal!

Though I concede most private transportation vehicles make sense only in very limited circumstances. I just think trucks cause a larger undue burden upon the environment around it than normal cars do.

thejustache > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:33

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Yeah no doubt. I actually mostly agree with you on principle - most trucks are not used to their potential and could be replaced with other things. I just also think if people want to spend too much for things they really don’t need, fine. That’s their money. I personally like my non-truck, but I also like being able to borrow a real truck from time to time. If somebody said “hey, you can do all truck things with this non-truck so we will no longer be making trucks and you can use the other thing instead” I’d honestly be sad despite not owning one. What can I say, I like choices...

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:34

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A double axle boat is quite a tow, probably in the 8,000 pound range.

Spanfeller is a twat > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 05/31/2018 at 15:35

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Is that the tongue weight?

Spanfeller is a twat > thejustache 05/31/2018 at 15:37

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Yes, we all like choices, people can choose to be smokers!

However, because economics dictates smoking is a market failure and inefficient, smokers are taxed... which exactly the opposite of what happens to trucks.

Spanfeller is a twat > Nothing 05/31/2018 at 15:38

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Mmmmmm Scat pack....

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:38

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No that is the total tow weight, I think tongue weight is 500 lbs or less. Those trailers do a really good job of keeping the weight on the trailer and not on the hitch.

Spanfeller is a twat > Milky 05/31/2018 at 15:39

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My mom freaked out when I suggested we take her Suburban off road.

Madness I say!

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:39

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Not at Western interstate speeds. That’s about 6500lbs of boat and trailer being towed at 80mph at elevation in 100+ degree temperatures and over/trough large canyons and mountain passes. While the racecar and trailer are less weight at around 3800lbs, factor in the tongue weight of towing cars on the rear axle and the bed full of tires, fuel jugs, tools, spares and all the other ephemera to go racing, and the answer to driving all that at western interstate speeds and conditions is a 1/2 ton body-on-frame truck.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:41

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US Trucks 1/2 ton: 1000 lb payload, tow rating varies but usually 10,000 maybe more depending on the truck.

3/4 ton: 1500 lb payload, tow rating about 15,000 lb depends on the truck and configuration

1 ton: 2000 lb payload tow rating usually 25,000-20,000 lbs

BahamaTodd > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 05/31/2018 at 15:42

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You are in the minority of truck owners.

How often do you tow?

Spanfeller is a twat > CobraJoe 05/31/2018 at 15:42

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You can get cabin dividers as most vans have. There is a legal limit as to how tall your load can be, and you can also throw shit into vans....

Maybe it’s from the perspective here in Mexico, where the firm I work for calculates 25m^2 for car parking lots in small buildings and 27-30m^2 for commercial areas that sometimes see trucks and large SUVs... Also when you’re digging underground, making a parking garage 50cm taller is a massive burden on cost.

Spanfeller is a twat > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 05/31/2018 at 15:46

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Sorry, I don’t understand pounds that well... But it seems to me that with such a low tongue rating a large estate with good brakes could pull the job!

This SUV rides on the same platform as the Golf....

Gerry197 > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:50

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You mentioned Jeremy Clarkson, however you didn’t mention his view of pick-up trucks more recently, especially the Top Gear road trip in Canada driving a Ford Raptor with James May driving a GMC Sierra 2500 or his Raptor with Grand Tour.

Essentially both him and James May (of all people) fell in love with their pick-ups or as they said “besotted” with them during the week or two they had them.

A modern pick-up has 4 doors, lots of room and luxury while having the cargo space to haul a lot of stuff and tow a boat, jet ski, etc. and you have the do-it all vehicle for all occasions. You can also add in high resale value regardless of gas prices.

Factor in Fords Ecoboost which was just recently tested by Autoweek with a 0-60 time of 5.7 seconds! That’s a small 2.7L V6 in a large 4-door crew cab 4x4 that will smoke the old 5.4L Supercharged single cab Lightning and quite of few modern sport (and sporty) cars of today.

All while carrying 5-6 passengers, towing and hauling in relative comfort for not that bad fuel economy. That same F150 is rated at 20 city / 26 mpg highway. Of course you need to drive like a hypermiler trying to win a contest to do it, but still amazing considering the size and performance.

Milky > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:52

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To be fair she has bought them used, but they all have had the Z71 off road package too.

Spanfeller is a twat > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 05/31/2018 at 15:53

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It’s legal to drive at 80mph when towing?

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:56

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2.2 lbs per kilo.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 15:56

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Where there are 80mph speed limits like West Texas, yes. Elsewhere it is only 5mph over the limit, which I don’t even kick off the cruise control for when passing a parked state trooper running traffic.

Spanfeller is a twat > Gerry197 05/31/2018 at 15:57

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They fell in love with pick up trucks in Canada... But they sure as hell drive a Range Rover with some rubber mats in England!

Yeah, but you don’t need a truck to do 99% of what you do! People keep coming to me with “Well, what if you need to haul an elephant”

YOU RENT A U HAUL THAT’s WHAT YOU DO!

Honestly, most of the things people are describing could be done with a nice estate car and it wouldn’t be the kind of burden that some trucks are today in the roads (they make parking harder, cars less safe, and do tear up the roads)

Spanfeller is a twat > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 05/31/2018 at 16:01

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I don’t know for certain if it’s illegal, but driving above a hundred while towing is generally frowned upon in Europe.

It does seem like a very niche requirement to be honest... and I’m certain a large estate car (say an E450) could do it as well without being two meters wide and a pain to park.

CobraJoe > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 16:02

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But SUVs are more useful the rest of the time.

Are they?

Advantages for the SUV: Built in locking cargo and the possibility of a 3rd row seat.

Advantages for the Truck: Significant increase in cargo area and weight capacity, significant increase in cargo area utility, multiple options for accessories for the load bed.

So, boils down to whether you’d more often use a 3rd row or haul. That’s an easy choice for me, I have only 2 kids and unloading 1000 pounds of sand or mulch from the back of an SUV sounds very difficult.

And trucks aren’t any cheaper than SUVs in my area.

Gerry197 > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 16:03

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I have a truck that I use the “truck” part 30% of the time, mainly on weekends. However, doing the math, it was still cheaper owning one modern truck than having a smaller car and then a old used truck.

Especially since my new truck gets almost the same fuel economy as my sedan did just a few years ago.

Let me put it this way. My F150 2.7L is within 10% of the fuel economy as my VW 2.oT sedan during my daily commute. But it’s able to tow my 6,000 lbs boat, seat 6 people in comfort while holding all our gear. The truck is also faster to boot.

It also has a higher-resale value than any German sedan I’ve owned after 2 years. Owning this one pick-up truck for all my needs has actually saved me more money than my typical German car and old truck combo ownership of the past. Even though it cost more to buy up front, it’s been my most financially efficient purchase.

Die-Trying > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 16:04

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does it matter how wide or long it is, when the largest chunk of my commute is completely open road?

and the last mile and a half could double as an off road park, and is mostly impassable in heavy rain?

passenger cars just dont cut it where i am.......

Spanfeller is a twat > CobraJoe 05/31/2018 at 16:05

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I don’t know about you, but unloading half a ton of sand seems awfully hard from the very tall bed of an SUV truck compared to a trailer or a van.

Spanfeller is a twat > Die-Trying 05/31/2018 at 16:07

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That is a good point.

Now, how do we get Brodozers out of the traffic jams of Mexico City?

Nibbles > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 16:10

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Meh. Any SUVs that can tow our trailer have a base price over what we paid for our nicely-equipped extended cab. Then there’s the added price of owning (or renting) a trailer for every time something needs to be hauled externally like sod, dirt, drywall etc, which is often. With two people and pets, an SUV with their 8-person seating is less useful - lots of wasted space.

Gerry197 > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 16:10

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Your main issue is size, but the US has a lot of room and people don’t like driving small things if they can avoid it. In Europe and other parts of the World they have no choice, but even they are driving larger cars these days.

A full-size truck makes sense for a lot of people, especially those that don’t live in cities. The US isn’t Europe or New York city like a lot of Jalopnik writers who don’t seem to understand the rest of America either.

There is a lot of room for these truck in most of the country. Newer versions are vastly more efficient than the past, some equal to larger sedans. They have all the luxuries and gadgets of any car while having the abilities and conveniences that no car has. People aren’t buying these for just image.

CobraJoe > PartyPooper2012 05/31/2018 at 16:12

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Still, the point that you have to pay extra to allow for a “locking cargo area” for a truck and then ignoring the costs involved in purchasing and registering a trailer is not exactly logical.

Granted, 5000 pounds towing is more than my 1/2 ton truck can haul without a trailer, even after factoring in trailer weight. However, my Titan is rated for 1700 pounds in the bed alone, which is good because I have no room to park a trailer, and I’m not exactly fond of pulling or parking them.

Besides, any vehicle can get dinged or scraped up. Inside the bed is the most likely part for a truck to get dings and scrapes, and that’s no big deal for the looks of the vehicle. (And if it is, get a bed liner or a cover). While it’s not a lexus, I still have heated leather captains chairs and a bunch of other toys inside.

Gerry197 > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 16:17

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Yea but there isn’t enough room for a fullsize truck in Europe, they don’t sell them there regardless (except grey market Raptors or Dodge Rams in Germany).

Trucks do hauling, but their main value is towing, especially with larger boats, horse trailers, etc. Sure you can do that with a larger SUV, but then you are essentially at the same size as big truck minus the cargo space. You showed a Tiguan/Golf based SUV towing a small boat, but those only have a tow rating of 2,500 lbs in the US.

Just to open your eyes a bit, my F150 has an all aluminum body and weighs in at 4,500 lbs, which is lighter than the smallest Tesla 3 sedan and every single Range Rover and Land Rover Discovery currently in production.

nermal > RutRut 05/31/2018 at 16:20

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Can you elaborate on the Saltillo plant? I have a truck from there and would like to know more about it’s origin.

Die-Trying > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 16:22

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truthfully.......... you just price them out of reach....... when fuel prices start climbing, costing too much, all the bellybutton, me too guys sell-out...... only the legit buisness, drive the tool(truck) for work guys will be driving them. its just a matter of passing the cost of fuel on to the customer in service call fees....

it happens here in the states every couple of decades when the price of oil gets up there to about $130+ per barrel. a city/state/country could put a fuel tax, and put it towards environmental rehabilitation(their own pockets)..... but the last time that crude oil prices got that high, everybody was trying to cut and run from their large suv, and fuel guzzlers...... small fuel efficient cars were going for a MINT.......

and that is ALL that it takes to cut the brodozers..... jacking up the price on the fuel.

Spanfeller is a twat > Die-Trying 05/31/2018 at 16:26

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But that is a problem because that’s what europe does and it contributes to poverty in the countryside.

Some people (very few) need trucks, and it would be hard to tailor tax incentives for them. I’d try to focus taxes in a bit of a mixed way, maybe some businesses can get incentives, and so can people living in areas with under “x” amount of people per square kilometre.

Spanfeller is a twat > Gerry197 05/31/2018 at 16:27

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The tow rating on the Tiguan is total towing or the tow tongue?

also, your arguments will be reflected on part 2! good ones!

KevlarRx7 > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 16:31

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I need my pick up because..... I live in moorlands, I’m a farmer, and there aren’t many 4 X 4 vans. Certainly not any I can load with a telehandler.

Sampsonite24-Earth's Least Likeliest Hero > PartyPooper2012 05/31/2018 at 16:38

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or, maybe just take care of your truck?

CobraJoe > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 16:40

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Cabin dividers don’t make it any easier to dump in a load of sand, and you would still be sharing an enclosed space with a smelly load. Besides, installing a cabin divider eliminates one of the best advantages of a van: the ability to reconfigure for passengers instead of hauling.

where the firm I work for calculates 25m^2 for car parking lots in small buildings and 27-30m^2 for commercial areas that sometimes see trucks and large SUVs

I don’t believe that your “car parking lots” are built to completely exclude personal pickup trucks. A GMC Sierra 1500 at stock ride height is no taller than I am, and a Ford Transit van is 10 inches taller.

Commercial areas often see vehicles much larger than 1/2 ton pickups. Box vans, larger trucks, utility vehicles... I would sooner believe that those vehicles would need an extra .5m of overhead height.

Die-Trying > Spanfeller is a twat 05/31/2018 at 16:41

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you asked how to get rid of brodozers, thats how it gets done, omelettes and broken eggs......... but here is the thing...... you can target the areas that you choose to remove them from by where you apply your tax.... how far out of the city would